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Author Topic: Connecticut School Shooting  (Read 29482 times)

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Offline The Bear Hunter

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Re: Connecticut School Shooting
« Reply #400 on: February 01, 2013, 01:12:43 AM »
Well, Legion, thing is that there are hundreds of misleading videos and pages about guns and Australia and they need to stop being reproduced.

Also, I'm afraid that when I cited just two documents I was treated as if there were only one (gun murders, but not murders in general) and the statistics involved were completely and utterly ignored.

There are facts here and Val is straight out denying them.

Moreover, I was somewhat taken aback by the 'phoney' accusation, so I went back and check very carefully. Just sharing

I actually wasn't being sarcastic at all.

Than why did my sarcasm machine break?
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Offline Valjean

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Re: Connecticut School Shooting
« Reply #401 on: February 01, 2013, 09:29:53 AM »
Bill,
First off I'm not ignoring you, but it might take me.... more than one sitting... to digest all that, think about it and write you back.  So I'm going to take the lazy man's approach and answer SGM's question first just because its less brain power.  Only having 2 brain cells left I haven't killed with alcohol you understand.  :D


Why is it that he is blamed for the strike on the murdered children, when no credit goes to him ordering the infiltration of ObL's hideout? They were both under his orders, but are we just trying to find the negatives he has "done"?

Yes IMO you're correct being in charge you're responsible for everything that happens or fails to happen.  So, for example, there are a huge amount of news articles written that are very critical in how Obama has handled drug enforcement ordering federal raids on legal medicinal marijuana dispensaries and all the rest. 

I don't blame him for the deaths of civilians from military strikes he ordered, per se.  That wasn't my point.  My point was folks are looking at the proposal of new gun control laws in response to this shooting very 1 dimensionally: if you are in favor of these laws you are for keeping children safe, if you're against new laws you want children endangered.  Its fear mongering, and as an easy example of how 1-dimensional that thinking is the largest advocate for these new laws (the President) has killed more children than the school shooter.  If his issue was, in fact, keeping children safe then he wouldn't use drone strikes proven lethal to children at a far greater rate (in a far shorter period of time than the 34 years since the last elementary school mass shooting).

These proposed gun laws are not about whether children are going to be safe or endanger.  They're already safe now.  These new proposals are about whether this school shooting can be manipulated for political purposes by Democrats to support a topic that has always been on the Democratic Party agenda for the last 40 years: reducing individual freedoms in the arena of gun ownership.  It is personally disgusting to me to see handsome, well-spoken liberal politicians taking advantage of this tragedy to exploit it as a way to further their own ideologies.  Not a single person calling for stricter gun control is doing so in response to that shooting.  They all believed in stricter gun control before it happened, and are manipulating this tragedy to their advantage.... all the while killing children themselves no less.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 02:20:11 PM by Valjean »

Offline Legion

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Re: Connecticut School Shooting
« Reply #402 on: February 02, 2013, 05:04:22 PM »
Democracy says POW!

Offline Valjean

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Re: Connecticut School Shooting
« Reply #403 on: February 02, 2013, 05:13:26 PM »
Democracy says POW!
(Image removed from quote.)

Now if we could just arrange for him to go "hunting" with President Putin...


Offline Ucah8er

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Re: Connecticut School Shooting
« Reply #404 on: February 03, 2013, 08:52:33 AM »
nothing compared to ghaddafi's bling


Offline rdeyd1 573

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Re: Connecticut School Shooting
« Reply #405 on: February 03, 2013, 09:24:39 AM »


Saddam Hiusseins
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 08:38:24 PM by rdeyd1 573 »
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence;it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."  -George Washington

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Offline Legion

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Re: Connecticut School Shooting
« Reply #406 on: February 03, 2013, 10:48:40 AM »
nothing compared to ghaddafi's bling

(Image removed from quote.)

Well shit. Who would have thought Ghaddafi was a pimp?

Offline Valjean

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Re: Connecticut School Shooting
« Reply #407 on: February 04, 2013, 11:12:28 AM »
Bill,
Wrote part of a response to your long group of posts before the weekend, but just got back into the office to finish it.  So I'm going to post my actual response in the next post below.

Now I have always found that those in favor of individual freedom are much less dogmatic than those who take the position of restricting freedom.  And I'm telling you this because a good deal of your post read as I'm full of shit and making stuff up.  You and I are both educated men Bill.  I haven't formed my opinions off what some right wing radio talk show host says.  They've been formed by fact over time, and I pull the data for remarks I make from various credible sources including the UN's website, NationMaster and a few other economics specific data sites I use for econ related matters.

It has been suggested by a great many that the US should model its gun laws off the UK or Australia.  Now don't take offense, I am dealing strictly in facts.  Australia has a lot more women being raped now that they can't defend themselves with guns than were being raped before.  There are a lot more assaults (its up almost 50%).  And the amount of gun related murders is the same.  And the UK is no better with a violent crime rate double America's. 

Couldn't possibly be so?  Here's the story of the rise of rape in Australia since the gun ban.  Last post I made a week ago I used numbers off an Australian government site & couldn't find them this morning so my post-1996 numbers are from Wikipedia.  You see a 27% increase in sexual assault since the gun ban.  I know I said 29% the other day, and if I found the missing years it would be 29% again today.  Thought lack of guns was supposed to make us safer?  Tell it to these women.

   




« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 11:22:08 AM by Valjean »

Offline Valjean

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Re: Connecticut School Shooting
« Reply #408 on: February 04, 2013, 11:19:46 AM »
Ok this is my actual response to your post, which I wrote part of Friday and just was able to finish today.

Man, you did not make this easy for me to respond to mostly because… there’s a lot of information but only one real point, which if I hear you correctly is: your perception is Australia is safer because of its gun control laws.


So, you are close to five times as likely to be murdered in the US than I am in Australia.  Statistically, that is a massive difference. You can deny it if you like, but it's a fact.

I never denied that.  You’re taking that statistic though and inferring from it that America’s gun laws must be the cause of America’s murder rate.   Percentages don’t establish cause & effect, at best they highlight correlations.  (EDIT - ironic I wrote this on Friday before your post on this topic).

 The cause is violent street gangs & drug prohibition.  In fact I made a reference to this a couple months ago after researching the actual reality of the American homicide rate.  The reality is that not just the majority of murders (and gun related murders)… not just the majority… but the SUPER majority are criminal on criminal violence upon which gun laws would have no effect. 

- Blacks account for less than 10% of the US population but over 50% of the murder victims & murderers.
- 90% of murderers in the US are male
- 78% of murder victims are male. 
- 75% of murder victims in America last year had criminal records
- 38% of murder victims had drug sales or possession convictions. 
- In Baltimore 91% of the murder victims in that city had criminal records. 
- In Milwaukee 77% of homicide victims in the past two years had an average of just under 12 arrests. 
- In Kansas City over 50% of murder victims were convicted felons.


In the Wall Street Journal, Joyce Lee Malcolm stated:

I went and found the article and read it.  For me the most interesting moral on gun control came from this story:

In 1987, Michael Ryan went on a shooting spree in his small town of Hungerford, England, killing 16 people (including his mother) and wounding another 14 before shooting himself. Since the public was unarmed—as were the police—Ryan wandered the streets for eight hours with two semiautomatic rifles and a handgun before anyone with a firearm was able to come to the rescue.

Homicide rates in both Australia and the US have varied for a number of reasons. Since the decline in the US occurred without effective gun controls, does this mean gun control is ineffective? No.

The Australian homicide rate was decreasing at an identical pace before Australia’s gun control laws as it was afterwards.  Ergo Australia’s gun control laws made no contribution to lowering the murder rate.  Just what benefit precisely do you believe was achieved by it?  You started this off discussing America’s murder rate, so I can only assume you believe that less gun ownership would mean less murder.  Yet in Australia less gun ownership hasn’t meant less murder?  Its just meant no gun ownership. 

Here’s the homicide rate in Australia from the Aust. Instit. Of Criminology.  I think you’ll agree no change in the rate due to the gun control enacted in the late 90s is fairly apparent.   


Now, if we want to really take it to the table I can show you that American homicide rates have dropped faster since the Clinton’s Assault Weapon Ban expired.





Claims that Australian gun laws have increased crime are pure spin and deception. They say more about American partisan politics than about the reality in Australia.

This is where I stopped before the weekend, but think I already covered this one in the post above.  Crime has increased in Australia since that nation's gun ban.  Violent crime has increased dramatically in certain areas & gun related murders have stayed the same.  In fact I didn't even do a proper statistical analysis for the rate of gun related murders taking into account the steady decrease in the overall murder rate but proportionally they would actually be on the rise and even increasing if I properly adjusted it for all the variables.  And if I had the time this morning I'd do it because that would be a very damning & embarrassing indictment of the failure of gun control laws.

Offline Outlaw_Marksman

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Re: Connecticut School Shooting
« Reply #409 on: February 06, 2013, 02:21:42 AM »
I've actually enjoyed reading the vast portion of this thread.

My original standing on gun laws around the world was that it shouldn't be so easy for potential criminals to get a gun. If the law wiped out gun ownership all together, a lot of people would follow the law and not own a gun. Someone who has the intention of committing a crime is not going to care that the law does not allow them to carry a gun. That's why my opinion has changed.

I would rather have a gun and not need it, than need a gun and not have it.



Offline booshthelurker

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Re: Connecticut School Shooting
« Reply #410 on: February 06, 2013, 02:36:56 AM »
I've actually enjoyed reading the vast portion of this thread.

My original standing on gun laws around the world was that it shouldn't be so easy for potential criminals to get a gun. If the law wiped out gun ownership all together, a lot of people would follow the law and not own a gun. Someone who has the intention of committing a crime is not going to care that the law does not allow them to carry a gun. That's why my opinion has changed.

I would rather have a gun and not need it, than need a gun and not have it.

You may now move to America. ;)

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Offline rdeyd1 573

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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence;it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."  -George Washington

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Offline The Bear Hunter

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Offline RedBull FM

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Re: Connecticut School Shooting
« Reply #413 on: March 26, 2013, 04:32:46 PM »
The NYPD are very well trained, the videos you've seen are of them being abusive toward rioters, now it's not like I think it's good when some of them do that stuff, but maintaining a riot would be incredibly hard.
(I know this is a old quote but please take a look at this video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xZKVSNjlSp0
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Offline rdeyd1 573

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« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 06:31:17 AM by rdeyd1 573 »
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence;it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."  -George Washington

There are two kinds of fascist: fascist and anti-fascist

Offline DocRikowski

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Re: Connecticut School Shooting
« Reply #415 on: April 19, 2013, 09:05:25 AM »
Nothing better than crystal clear truth. ;)


I'll just add that 87% of firearm related deaths among children in 1st world counties happens in USA.

Against facts...

Offline Cheese

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Re: Connecticut School Shooting
« Reply #416 on: April 19, 2013, 12:09:10 PM »
Nothing better than crystal clear truth. ;)
(Image removed from quote.)

I'll just add that 87% of firearm related deaths among children in 1st world counties happens in USA.

Against facts...

Maybe it is because they don't teach trigger discipline...