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Author Topic: Unemployment: a new take  (Read 4931 times)

Offline Valjean

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2013, 08:55:15 AM »
boosh, im not very smart but i try like hell to observe.  i cant tell if you really have an opinion.  you seem to intelligent to sum up others beliefs yet not own any yourself.  idk....maybe im missing something

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Offline booshthelurker

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2013, 11:55:18 AM »
boosh, im not very smart but i try like hell to observe.  i cant tell if you really have an opinion.  you seem to intelligent to sum up others beliefs yet not own any yourself.  idk....maybe im missing something

Humility is great thing, and I myself like you don't pretend to have all the answers unlike some people around here... Of course I have an opinion, but I didn't think I needed to voice it because as usual it's a composite of a few standpoints and this thread, like most in this section, is about two polarized opinions. Also, I wasn't summing up others beliefs I was pointing out that Val was making a negative sweeping statement. So, yeah you were missing something, but good I appreciate you trying.

My beliefs are based on being reasonable, and having faith as well as wariness in people. Just like I believe it's a good idea to not have children working in factories I believe that there should be a minimum standard of wages. All games need some basic rules, and Capitalism is no different.

Do I agree with all the laws in place completely regarding age and wage? No, but discussing the intracacies here seems a waste. I enjoy reading some of what's said around here whether I agree or not, but I don't agree with people making derogatory statements about entire groups of people whether it's African Americans, Normal mode players, Latinos, Xbox owners, Republicans, Democrats, Iranians, etc. Is that something you can understand Wist?

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Offline Valjean

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2013, 03:13:44 PM »
Fubar, if you criticize Democrats you're a racist, thought you knew that already man.  If you're not a racist then you're definitely prejudice.  Except that... prejudice = making an opinion before learning the relevant facts.  If you learn the relevant facts, then form an opinion supported by facts then what you get are people - the ones who actually don't have an opinion supported by facts - attacking you.  That's why its hard to pick out what certain people believe.

Also why I amended the area rules to prevent these discussions from degrading into personal attacks.  Boosh, go reread the section rules and keep your personal attacks to yourself.  If you decide you actually have something to say about the topic I'll address it. 

In fact, aw hell, I'll just address your statement about child labor in factories.  Where did those children come from?  You think they just appeared out of thin air.  Either that or likely you're presupposing your image of America in 2013 to life in the Industrial Revolution.  Those children came from farms where they did more dangerous, more back breaking labor, 12 hours a day for no pay.  Working in those factories was an improvement of quality of life for them.

Offline booshthelurker

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2013, 03:34:34 PM »
The Democratic party makes most of its economic positions in total absence of fact, or many times having facts and disregarding them entirely, in favor of "feel good" / "do gooder" positions. 

This is a totally reasonable, factual, and impartial statement. It's not hyperbolic at all, and in no way an ignorant sweeping statement. Statements like this really do cause me to laugh regardless of who the target is because it just screams, "I'm completely narrow minded." That sort of ignorance may be scary, but it's also fun to laugh at because it takes a special kind of person to make it. In this case it's literally the same as racism but for political parties. LOL

I'm criticizing a statement. I'm not making a personal attack. I take issue with the statement, and have no desire to defend that fact that the statement I take issue with is in fact ignorant. The person who made the statement is of no consequence. I have read the rules, and is why I chose to address the statement.

Also, I don't need to defend that I don't think kids should work in factories. Do I think there are jobs kids could do to help their families make ends meet? Yes, of course I do - that's reasonable. Am I aware that kids working on farms back then were subjected to danger equal to factories? Yes, I am. So, I still stand behind my insane belief children shouldn't work in factories... Insane, right?

I also stand behind me belief that there should be minimums set on wages. It's not rocket science that needs in-depth explanation - there's greed in the world and some safe guards need to exist. If I was a person of wealth it might be easy for me to have full faith in the wealthy, but I am not. I believe in the Bill of Rights as well...

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Offline Valjean

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2013, 03:51:52 PM »
In 2013 in America children should not work in factories.  However, there are other parts of the world, and in other time periods where there was nothing wrong with it.  See we're assuming we know whats best for people based on how we see the world, not on how they see the world.  People are very good at judging whats in their own best interest.  England in the industrial revolution didn't have the education system it has today.  Children at the age of 12 or 15 were needing to develop work skills.  And if working in a factory was better than every other alternative out there for them then so be it.  For every master craftman that person started as an apprentice.

Offline booshthelurker

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2013, 04:21:53 PM »
True that, but I do see some things slightly different.

I do think people are good at judging what's good for them, but before that I think they are good at doing what it takes to survive. If there are no alternative to factory work then of course you're going to do it, but I do believe industry sometimes need a reason not to pay a child to lower wage than an adult because it makes for a better bottom line.

I don't think children in any country should be working full time or with industrial equipment. I think children should work though, and in fact take issue with the general laziness of American children. Summer vacation existed for farming families, but now it instills some bizarre belief that life involves times without work. I agree that teens benefit greatly from working to develop skills - even if it's mowing lawns, of filing papers office, pitching in at a family store, baby sitting, etc.

I'm sure you have data or statistics or can cite reasons why regulation of wages or restricted age for labor has been proven faulty. The thing is I could make counter arguments of equal merit. Both of us would poke holes in the others arguments, discredit sources, and spew "facts" to no avail. It will be a one way road if you want that though...

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Offline the GUN runnerr

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2013, 05:32:22 PM »
Is this really going on.  Im not kissing Vals ass or anything at all but I gotta simply clear this up.  He is staing historical facts about the past and the way the world use to be.  Right or wrong ofcorse, there should be no way for anyone to take offense to these statements.  This bad shit happened in america and without these critcle acts against humanity it we would never created a constitution or any leagal document to keep things in order.  All of this history leads up to The world we have today.  So we cant talk about it?  The way I see it, Val is a fucking racist peice of shit because he knows about the history of the Ku Klux Klan and isnt afraid to discuss it.  Hell he must be in it


Offline the GUN runnerr

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2013, 05:45:59 PM »
These "scary' things are facts, not beliefs.  All I have to say.


Offline booshthelurker

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2013, 05:51:56 PM »
Ok Wist...
I never called Val racist. I compared the statement he made about democrats to statements like racism. You k ow the whole broad negative generalities backed up by subjective "truths."

Relax. A lot of people know about history. Also, Val is more than capable of making a strong defense for himself without your help. Be careful with your facts, too. Other facts frequently expose their tenuous nature....

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Offline booshthelurker

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2013, 06:15:09 PM »
To be clearer:
You can make a claim and support it with factual data, but that data does not necessarily make the claim a fact. Many claims can be broken down when data not factored in or ignored is considered.

I might disagree with a claim and acknowledge the data given as valid, and be aware of conflicting data to support my disagreement. Most of there's topics are rich in data that can be used to support either side. I don't play the game...

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Offline the GUN runnerr

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2013, 09:13:36 PM »
Well then tell me this is not a fact about unemployment.  There are to many lazy fuckers in this country/world today.  These lazy fuckers can expoit the system or simply just choose not to work.  Either way, unemployment is in place to 'give them support" through the hard times.  I know this mother fucker that was a trashman.  He got fired because he did something stupid and went to jail.  He has been on unemployment for 2 years and goes to the bar every day.  Although he may have had a less fortunate upbrining, he chooses to be lazy.  Thats another fact.  People that didnt grow up with a sound finacial background and moral support tend to have to do everything on their own.  This would be very hard for anyone.  Man their are so many reasons for people to just quit and be lazy and not care.  Hence, un employment in 2013.  Im excluding the handycap people and things of that nature as they most likley deserve support.  If fuckheads would get motivated and get of their ass,  then unemployment policies would take care of themselves and leave no discussion/arguments or adjustments.  Thats my opinion, my beleif, and its a fact.


Offline Valjean

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2013, 09:29:55 PM »
That's the problem of government payments of any kind.  They correspond directly with lower productivity. Mankind discovered that in Ancient Rome with "bread and circuses".  People who support government payments just aren't smart enough to have learned this lesson yet. 

People have a myth that the government can just create money for them.  Just like they believe things like Obama can just raise the minimum wage and suddenly everyone makes more money.  Government can't set wages, all they can do is make it illegal to employ all the unskilled people worth a lower wage... Unless of course you want to engage in charity but most companies aren't in a position where they can afford to do that. 


Offline the GUN runnerr

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2013, 09:59:32 PM »
If you raise wadges the cost of living goes up.  So does the ammount of $ in unemployment hand outs.  It all canceles the other one out solving nothing.  Ive stated that reprinting money basically destroys the value of the dollar and that what this Kermit the frog talking shit head is doing in order to leave it for the next guy.  I hate this, but when you see things like this, you almost wanna lose hope, just like those lazy fuckers on unemployment (not all of them by the way).  Guess Im saying be strong and fight.  Have a civil war if needed.  The strong survive and a new government is formed.  Although its seems scary and a horrible way to think, I dont see what else to do about our economical rut.  Or move to europe i guess.  Hell, this place has turned into such a pussy land.

I have a soltion for the fucks that are fine with all this currentluy going on.  Ill give them the east or west coast so they can go get high togther and pick fucking flowers.  They owen their own country now.  Now the rest of us fight to start over for the rest of the land.  Then the u.s. turns into 2 countries.  Its a big place and I would be fine with that.  After reading that, that sounds so stupid


Offline booshthelurker

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2013, 03:11:59 AM »
After 21 years in the work force and paying taxes into unemployment insurance I finally used it last year. My work shut down for 2 months and being able to cash in on what I payed into for so long really helped my family out. I suppose you see that as me receiving a hand out? Am I lazy? No sir...

To assume the worst of unemployment insurance based on the minority who abuses it would be dangerous. If the same is done in the direction of the free market and capitalism in terms of regulation it's also dangerous. Both can exist to put benefit, but not if your a junior FOX or HUFF puppet...
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 06:39:08 AM by booshthelurker »

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Offline rdeyd1 573

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2013, 06:52:05 AM »
I don't think you pay into the unemployed ins. just the employer.
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence;it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."  -George Washington

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Offline Valjean

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2013, 07:29:37 AM »
I don't think you pay into the unemployed ins. just the employer.

That's the danger of these stupid government programs is that everyone has this idea.  Actually the employee bears 100% of the cost.  Its a total myth that the employer pays anything.  Same w/ Social Security: the person working the job pays all 12%.  The employee pays all 4% of the unemployment withholding, they pay all 2.9% of Medicare, etc.

See if I'm a company and I can pay you $1000 per week I don't care if I pay the government $1000 in taxes and you get nothing or if I give you the whole $1000.  Its the same cost to me.  Liberals would like everyone to believe that they can infinitely tax 'big business', etc and the average working person isn't effected.  But corporations do not pay tax of any kind, only people pay tax.  The people just only get $750 in their paycheck each week and $250 gets skimmed right off the top to the government before they even see it.  Its theft by deception pure and simple.

Offline rdeyd1 573

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2013, 07:59:01 AM »
Then why do they have such a fit when they loose a case and have to pay?
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence;it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."  -George Washington

There are two kinds of fascist: fascist and anti-fascist

Offline booshthelurker

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2013, 02:20:57 PM »
I was part of the uniformed on that one. Apparently there's 3 states where employees contribute but I never loved in those. Still, I am happy my family benefited from the "handout" just like those who review disability, the GI bill, Medicare, etc.

I do feel employers pay too much on taxes, but I support unemployment insurance.

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Offline the GUN runnerr

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2013, 03:03:56 PM »
Boosh, you know better then to ask me if your in that catagory.  I do take what you said as a breath of fresh air and a sigh of relief.  To see that something would actually payoff when in the form of insurence.  Different subject but insurence is a sham.  I would like all the home owners and auto owners to summ up their lifetime payments into these companies.  Would be quite alot of money right.  Well then why the fuck would a guy that pays in for 20 years, premiums go up for getting in a fender bender.  He has a perfect record and sends in a 1000 dollar claim.  thenhis payments go up 50 dollars a month.  thats why I say, when you can rip off an insurence company do it!


Offline Valjean

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Re: Unemployment: a new take
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2013, 04:50:58 PM »
I was part of the uniformed on that one. Apparently there's 3 states where employees contribute but I never loved in those. Still, I am happy my family benefited from the "handout" just like those who review disability, the GI bill, Medicare, etc.

I do feel employers pay too much on taxes, but I support unemployment insurance.

I was not referring to those few states.  I was referring to the fact that all payroll expenses are paid 100% by the employee.  Social Security, medicare, unemployment tax, medicaid.  The accounting term employers use is "burden rate" but the only effect those programs have is to make the employee receive a smaller paycheck than they would have gotten.  The employer isn't bearing any of that expense.  The suggestion someone else is paying for it its just the lie used to sell those programs, "oh that doesn't sound too bad, the company will pay it....."