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Author Topic: Moral dilemmas  (Read 5826 times)

Offline Kazzy

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2013, 07:55:54 AM »
I didn't see a thing...

Offline convex airplane

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2013, 09:41:46 AM »
The problem with these dilemmas is that yes, if you kill a baby or sacrifice someone else for you, you won't be able to live with yourself after it is done....

I bet 7/10 cases like this end up where the guy who lives kills themselves.

Offline Casteyn

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2013, 09:48:10 AM »
Dilemma 1: Here's one: you're a Jew in Nazi Germany.  You're in hiding with 20 relatives and the nazis are nearby searching for you.  If they find you they will likely kill you all, but at a minimum you'll all be taken to a concentration camp.  Its still 5 years before the allies will liberate concentration camps.  You're holding your baby who won't stop crying.  The only way to stop the baby from crying is to smoother him to death.  If he doesn't stop crying you will all 100%be discovered.  What do you do?

I would leave with the baby and try to get away, if I stay, we are all dead. If I leave, we all have a small chance.

Dilemma 2: you get your dream job promotion if you can do this.  you have to frame your current boss, who just so happensto be your best freind, for murder.  full proof scheem, you wont get caught.

Nope, would not do anything like that for a job

Dilemma 3: you have a 10 year old daughter who is raped by a 40 year old man, but there's not enough evidence to arrest him.  Still you know 100% certain it was him because your daughter tells you.  Months later you see the 40 year old having dinner alone in a restaurant.  You hear the next day that he is arrested for murder, and that he killed his wife and staged it to look like a robbery.  You realize that the murder occurred at the same time you saw him in the restaurant and that he could not have been the killer.  If you give him an alibi he goes free, if you do not he gets the death penalty.  What do you do?

I would have tried to kill him myself, so if he ended up in that situation, I wouldn't say a damn thing, thank karma while I was at it and make sure I was present for his execution.

Offline convex airplane

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2013, 09:58:07 AM »
Dilemma 1: Here's one: you're a Jew in Nazi Germany.  You're in hiding with 20 relatives and the nazis are nearby searching for you.  If they find you they will likely kill you all, but at a minimum you'll all be taken to a concentration camp.  Its still 5 years before the allies will liberate concentration camps.  You're holding your baby who won't stop crying.  The only way to stop the baby from crying is to smoother him to death.  If he doesn't stop crying you will all 100%be discovered.  What do you do?

Leave the baby for the Nazis to find, they won't know he is a jew... Unless...

Dilemma 2: you get your dream job promotion if you can do this.  you have to frame your current boss, who just so happensto be your best freind, for murder.  full proof scheem, you wont get caught.

I need to know more about my friend, but probably not, I mean it's just a job, it would be different you you killed some one and had the chance to pin it on your friend.

Dilemma 3: you have a 10 year old daughter who is raped by a 40 year old man, but there's not enough evidence to arrest him.  Still you know 100% certain it was him because your daughter tells you.  Months later you see the 40 year old having dinner alone in a restaurant.  You hear the next day that he is arrested for murder, and that he killed his wife and staged it to look like a robbery.  You realize that the murder occurred at the same time you saw him in the restaurant and that he could not have been the killer.  If you give him an alibi he goes free, if you do not he gets the death penalty.  What do you do?

Well, would you get the death penalty for his rape charge? If so then I would let the bastard die

Offline Casteyn

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2013, 10:00:26 AM »
He wouldn't get the death penalty for the rape charge! Hence, why I'd kill him myself. These days he'd probably get all of 2 years probation...fucking justice system.

Offline convex airplane

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2013, 10:04:24 AM »
He wouldn't get the death penalty for the rape charge! Hence, why I'd kill him myself. These days he'd probably get all of 2 years probation...fucking justice system.

Gotta love the justice system... HSBC funds drug cartels and gets away with it.... Law abiding citizen wants to enjoy a movie for free, rips it from the internet, and gets 10 years in prison -_- Thank you western society, you have fucked us once again...

Offline Legion

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2013, 04:19:47 PM »
Not my wife, not my problem.

Offline Valjean

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2013, 05:56:44 PM »
Here's a new dilemma:

You are in the Army and you've been sent to Bosnia.  You're a platoon leader in charge of 4 tanks.  There are mass graves and the locals keep telling you its a genocide and the Bosnians are killing everyone.  You & your 4 tanks have spent the last week in a position by a Muslim village.  The Bosnian army is advancing on your location.  You receive orders over the radio that another American unit needs reinforcing.  You are ordered to withdraw from the village and link up with the other American unit elsewhere.  If you leave the people in the village will all certainly be massacred.  Based on the size of the enemy if you stay the other American unit may be killed and its likely your unit will suffer casualties and the villagers may die as well.  If you live you're likely to wind up in prison in Leavenworth for disobeying an order of this kind.

Offline the GUN runnerr

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2013, 06:02:22 PM »
Morality as in what is "right" or "proper" right?

I believe it better to sacrifice myself (possibly mentally and emotionally) and my baby (life all told) for the possible welfare of my entire family (the other 18 in the example Val offered.)
I don't believe putting my personal desires for promotion over the welfare of another - much less a friend - over mine; especially through the act of conscienceless lying... Jesus Christ talk about a no-brainer. lol

Val's example offers the chance for a debate over the welfare of the baby, a.k.a future generation of the family, versus the whole group based on a chance of survival. Would you kill the baby on a maybe for the others? There's some interesting questions there, and seemingly obvious conclusions (like mine) that can be challenged with reasonable points. I stand by my choice.

Not sure what Wist is going for, but at least he made an effort even if I don't really get the debate there. So, would you totally dick yer homie over to get what you want or no? Hmmmm lol I dunno... lol
So I left out specifics because they arent supposed to matter on your descision.  And i said I wouldnt do this to a friend.  But you obviously dont know how greedy some people are out there.  If I would have said you get promoted to make $2,000,000 from $250,000 a year then their is something to think about.  And this would obviously effect your family to, not only you, as they could be set for generations.  NOW, you would contemplate it but most would still answer the same.  And I can see your ripping into me as I typed in morals and ethics backwards on that.  Do like the post from you man, you didnt even appologize for saying what was on your mind.


Offline the GUN runnerr

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2013, 06:09:54 PM »
That last one is just to easy val.  Ask any war vet and he will tell you that the only people they care about is thier fellow soldier.  So in this case, follow orders, And thats what my personal answer is.  On the rape guy, Im with Casteyn on that.....fuck em.


Offline Legion

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2013, 06:45:32 PM »
Here's a new dilemma:

You are in the Army and you've been sent to Bosnia.  You're a platoon leader in charge of 4 tanks.  There are mass graves and the locals keep telling you its a genocide and the Bosnians are killing everyone.  You & your 4 tanks have spent the last week in a position by a Muslim village.  The Bosnian army is advancing on your location.  You receive orders over the radio that another American unit needs reinforcing.  You are ordered to withdraw from the village and link up with the other American unit elsewhere.  If you leave the people in the village will all certainly be massacred.  Based on the size of the enemy if you stay the other American unit may be killed and its likely your unit will suffer casualties and the villagers may die as well.  If you live you're likely to wind up in prison in Leavenworth for disobeying an order of this kind.

Follow orders. Your in the military, I wouldn't disobey.

Offline Valjean

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2013, 07:01:47 PM »
I'd stay personally.

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2013, 07:12:13 PM »
I'd stay, the people in the army signed up to their job accepting that they could die, the villagers didn't.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2013, 08:01:44 PM »
I would reinforce the units, an army works better when people follow orders.

Offline Tyler

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2013, 12:01:22 AM »
Dilemma 1: Here's one: you're a Jew in Nazi Germany.  You're in hiding with 20 relatives and the nazis are nearby searching for you.  If they find you they will likely kill you all, but at a minimum you'll all be taken to a concentration camp.  Its still 5 years before the allies will liberate concentration camps.  You're holding your baby who won't stop crying.  The only way to stop the baby from crying is to smoother him to death.  If he doesn't stop crying you will all 100%be discovered.  What do you do?

Lame as fuck dilemma. Contextually it makes no sense for me; I've never known the emotion that comes with having a child, nor have i had any relationships that mimic it. My input is at best lacking, I have no reason to be able to make this decision and it has no reason to be relevant in my life. I submit that it's a shitty dilemma.

But, I'd choose to smother the child, given this horrible dichotomy.

Quote
Dilemma 2: you get your dream job promotion if you can do this.  you have to frame your current boss, who just so happensto be your best freind, for murder.  full proof scheem, you wont get caught.

I don't have a dream job; I don't even have real motivation to move up a career ladder at this point. Sure, I don't really value friendship and most of my relationships in general are strained, but I care enough to make sure another person isn't put into the corrupt, self-serving bullshit prison-industrial complex. This hypothetical sucks. If I actually had the means to answer it, I'd probably take the job, though.

Quote
Dilemma 3: you have a 10 year old daughter who is raped by a 40 year old man, but there's not enough evidence to arrest him.  Still you know 100% certain it was him because your daughter tells you.  Months later you see the 40 year old having dinner alone in a restaurant.  You hear the next day that he is arrested for murder, and that he killed his wife and staged it to look like a robbery.  You realize that the murder occurred at the same time you saw him in the restaurant and that he could not have been the killer.  If you give him an alibi he goes free, if you do not he gets the death penalty.  What do you do?

He goes free for me. I'm already against the death penalty, and I'm also not a fan of false convictions. At the end of the day he is guilty for something, but it's not the crime he's on trial for. I'd rather the killer of my wife be brought to justice in that case. Also I'd probably commit suicide in this world, either that or fall into a deep-seated, drug-fueled addiction. So my testimony probably wouldn't help, and I'd certainly not be in the right state of mind to decide the lives of other people.

Quote
You are in the Army and you've been sent to Bosnia.  You're a platoon leader in charge of 4 tanks.  There are mass graves and the locals keep telling you its a genocide and the Bosnians are killing everyone.  You & your 4 tanks have spent the last week in a position by a Muslim village.  The Bosnian army is advancing on your location.  You receive orders over the radio that another American unit needs reinforcing.  You are ordered to withdraw from the village and link up with the other American unit elsewhere.  If you leave the people in the village will all certainly be massacred.  Based on the size of the enemy if you stay the other American unit may be killed and its likely your unit will suffer casualties and the villagers may die as well.  If you live you're likely to wind up in prison in Leavenworth for disobeying an order of this kind.

Link up for reinforcements. Higher ups know what they're doing, if I'm this low in the chain there's a reason I should be following what the person above me says. They see the battlefield better than I do and by acting as a part of their hand I'm helping prevent the massacre of more than one village in the long run. Sure, I'll probably develop massive guilt from the memories of children watching me from the rear-view mirror, but I got plenty of guilt as it is, could always just stack some more on there.

----


My main problem with these "moral dilemmas" are that they are almost completely impossible and illogical or inconsistent with the world they present. Along with that, I'm a very inconsistent person who doesn't really agree with the idea of objective morals in the first place. Virtuous ethics are one thing but at the end of the day I'm a pragmatist. Once you can present dilemmas that aren't just superfluous hypothetical situations, I'll begin to take this moral exercise more seriously.
Things, and stuff

Offline booshthelurker

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2013, 02:38:07 AM »
So I left out specifics because they arent supposed to matter on your descision.  And i said I wouldnt do this to a friend.  But you obviously dont know how greedy some people are out there.  If I would have said you get promoted to make $2,000,000 from $250,000 a year then their is something to think about.  And this would obviously effect your family to, not only you, as they could be set for generations.  NOW, you would contemplate it but most would still answer the same.  And I can see your ripping into me as I typed in morals and ethics backwards on that.  Do like the post from you man, you didnt even appologize for saying what was on your mind.
[/quote]

Well, I'm quite sure I too know how greedy people can be. The amount of money doesn't make my answer different just like you. Even a monthly increase of $400 an month would be greatly appreciated by my family, but things would have to be extremely bad for me to threaten my sense of morality. Others might feel different, but I'm not them so what can I say?

Also, at no point did I rip into you, but maybe I should have added emoticons to my lols so it was more obvious I was just making friendly jab - my bad.

I'm not a moral relativist, but I do see some value in recognizing it's worth in theory. These exercises are fun because as Val said there are no "right" answers. (unless you're one of those people... ;) )

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Offline the GUN runnerr

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2013, 02:53:06 AM »
dude, friendly jab indeed.  but there you go appologizing.  you see regularly that i dish it out.  i can take it as well. 


Offline the GUN runnerr

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2013, 03:06:00 AM »
this dude on suicide watch brings a point ive hinted at.  the 1st thing i saw on this thread was a response by someone who couldnt sympathize with the dilemma because theyve never had a child.  so i posted one that i thought would be more simple, not considering most of the veiwers arent carrer driven.  i was wrong about this whole thread.  you dont really answer them because of the outcomes, you just discuss them.


Offline booshthelurker

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2013, 03:23:32 AM »
dude, friendly jab indeed.  but there you go appologizing.  you see regularly that i dish it out.  i can take it as well. 

I'm sure you can. I don't apologize because I'm overwhelmed with emotion - it's just how I was raised. It's a less grand version of morals; for me it's the right thing to do so I do it. For the most part I say what I mean, and respond to people with my thoughts, and if I realize I may have been wrong or if I was taken differently than I intended I apologize. OldBill called me emo once, but I'm just being real to myself and operating based on how I was raised.

If you want emo listen to Metallica, Black Flag, Ted Nugent, Bill O'reiley or Tupac. ;)

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Offline Valjean

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Re: Moral dilemmas
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2013, 07:55:24 AM »
My main problem with these "moral dilemmas" are that they are almost completely impossible and illogical or inconsistent with the world they present.

One of mine came from the real world :(



I'm just being sarcastic, no frown face.  But here's another real world example:

Dilemma 5: You're in the Army (sorry this is where many of mine come from) just starting your career as a 2nd Lieutenant.  The base you're assigned to the Commanding General has a policy that officers may not drive if they've had anything to drink even if under the legal limit.  You've had a beer with dinner, a buddy calls you from off post and says he's too wasted to make it home from the bar.  If you go to pick him up you'll be stopped at the gate on the way back on post and arrested for violating the order.  After that who knows what fate you'll have.  If you don't pick up your buddy who knows what he'll do, but he usually drives himself home.